Adam Williams (27:24): I tend to be, I think a fairly sentimental person, reflective. Even in my short time, certainly compared to yours and your family living in Chaffee County, I see memories where I've done something with my kids and I think of those things. So I can only imagine if you're at all like me in that sense of that sentimentality, I would think you could hardly go anywhere in this area without having just a flood of those kinds of memories coming to mind.

Art Hutchinson (27:58): Oh, it's almost everywhere. I still call certain places by its old name like the spa was... Then it became County Bounty and now it's a Mexican restaurant. Or Stuart Mortuary became Amicas and now another Mexican place. By the way, my mom would never go eat in there. She says, "I saw too many of my friends laying flat to go have a pizza in there." So I started calling it tombstone pizza. But almost everywhere you go, Pete Barron's old place where he loaded coal for my grandmother and the bottling. It's...

Adam Williams (28:36): Everywhere.

Art Hutchinson (28:38): Steam-powered train was still running into Monarch when I was little. I had a movie of my brother and sister waving at the ranch and the locomotive going up puffing smoke just like the Durango-Silverton.

Adam Williams (28:49): Wow. I think we got to talk about change now. It's kind of crept in here, here and there. And just the idea of thinking of, again, nearly 160 years from the time that Joe Hutchinson founded the ranch and homestead to where we are now. You mentioned Highway 50 for one example, but there's also when free range was the way that the early generations were able to feed their cattle. Since then, I mean, many decades ago, even now grazing laws have come in, fences have come in.

(29:26): Of course, Highway 50 divided your ranch. It runs right by where that homestead is. Those are pretty significant changes. Do you have a sense for how that impacted? And did it make things even more difficult to ranch cattle up here in the high country?

Art Hutchinson (29:45): For a long time, I don't believe so. The 1890s some claim were the end of the frontier. That's about the time my great-grandfather was born. They talk about being able to move the cows. Even, they almost knew where to go. Like I said earlier, at that time there were not a lot of private in holdings or homesteads that had been gobbled up so to speak. So the cows could graze all the way up Poncha Pass and not have houses, et cetera.

(30:15): So it's really only been since probably the 1970s that Salida gradually is first gradual and then now much faster changed. The demise of old Climax is still up there with the black cloud mine. And Monarch Quarry is still operating, but the terrain no longer goes up there. So all of that has really, I think impacted things. And then people were buying off. As farmers, didn't make it. They sold their place to somebody and Poncha Springs grew and Salida grew.

(30:53): Salida has always been a little bit of a place reluctant to change. Western State College wanted to come here, but the town fathers at the time said we don't want that college riff-raff here. That's least the rumors that I think are pretty true. There was a couple other things that were going to come in and they wanted Salida to stay. If you look at the footprint of Salida, it's pretty small. So a lot of the development had to occur outside. So a lot of this acreage that we used to graze on or at least mostly lease from people is gone into houses now.

(31:33): I don't want to make it sound like the change is bad because change happens. Is there a limit to acceptable change here? How many people can this small valley hold with the internet with other things that may be unlimited? But we've watched, I think that our neighbors from Carbondale to Durango to the places change pretty fast. If you read the papers a little bit lately, it's pull and tug. Where it goes from here, I don't know. We're fairly fortunate that we have enough land out there to take care of a certain amount of cows and we have good water rights.

(32:17): We have a lot of good things that are going on. My daughter makes a fairly good living at weddings. Now, are ranch weddings going to be here in 20 years? I don't know. But if you look in the history of things, the railroad didn't last very long here. They built in 1880 and by the 1930s it was starting to dwindle. By the 1950s, most of the tracks except the main line have been torn up. That's not a very big window in the history of humans. So you kind of go, "How are we doing on that?"

(32:49): I'm not a crystal ball guy, but I just see a lot of things happening. Everything from how many wells can you drill in a valley like this? How big a sewer system do you need to take care of all these folks? The influx of vacationers is, it's good for the economy, the river rafting, I've made a living partially as a kid rafting. All of those things have impacted Salida and it's also to a certain extent impacted us here on the ranch. Like I said, we don't no longer have a John Deere dealership and we have... The other day I counted 54 cars before I could drive across Highway 50.

Adam Williams (33:34): Wow, okay.

Art Hutchinson (33:36): You just sit there and you go, "Wow, when are they going to put the stoplight out here?" When Salida got its first stoplight down on that street, it was like, "Why do we need a stoplight?" Now you got little impulses of cars coming out of Walmart and out in Holman Avenue and it changes. There's no question. I think if you talk to anybody that's been here very long, even the newcomers go, boy, it's really changed.

Adam Williams (34:00): Talking about Highway 50, it brings to mind a particular story that was in that documentary by Rocky Mountain PBS and I think it was your grandfather Mills who when the road was still dirt and traffic had relatively speaking because cars had developed at that point and they would kick up enough dust that he would go out there and wet it, and turn it to mud, which then would upset the drivers of the cars were getting caught in the mud.

Art Hutchinson (34:27): Our irrigation ditches, he just turned it down there cause he gets so tired of dust. And he said it slows him down too.

​

Adam Williams (34:34): Right. But here we are now with like you said, you could land a good size plane as many lanes as have been paved out there. So certainly a lot of change. We could talk about that endlessly, the changes that have occurred. Not just even in your time and what you're aware of with the ranch, but of course over that period of time. On my way into this studio today, I happen to see a guy driving a nicely restored sedan from the '40s and he was talking on a smartphone. And it made me laugh out loud to myself because of just seeing that change and what your ranch and family have seen over time is even greater. Change is inevitable.

Art Hutchinson (35:15): Change is inevitable. And I think it's all in planning and how we deal with it as a civilization or is a local culture. Salida was a lucky little town. I don't how we're doing here on time, but we were pretty isolated in those days. I mentioned the TV finally came in and they used to... Didn't plow monarch very often.

The ski area was put in up in the '40s. A lot of times I guess you couldn't go past there because I just didn't have the manpower or the horsepower to plow Highway 50. High School was quaint times. Jimmy McCormick local here that he had four daughters and same age as my sister. And he said, "Art, you and my kids grew up in the most idyllic time of Salida that could ever been.

(36:01): We had enough money that we could provide for folks. We had a decent school system and yet we were isolated from the outside world. And to go to Denver was an event. It wasn't just like, "Oh, I guess, I'll drive up and back today." I don't want to call it Andy of Mayberry, but we knew the sheriff. I remember having a [inaudible 00:36:26] birthday party in the jail cell down under the courthouse. Nobody was there. The sheriff was there. Nobody was in prison then or in the jail. How many kids get to do that in the jailhouse today? So those are all little nostalgic events of the time.

Adam Williams (36:45): Uncle Art kept a diary. Have you ever done anything like that where you're keeping any record of these kinds of stories or have you considered writing some of the history or even just a memoir that speaks to some of these things?

Art Hutchinson (36:59): Well, I did the modern thing and I got a video camera when I was little. They're not little but probably in high school and then finding a better one that you could hold up like this.

Adam Williams (37:09): Put it on your shoulder?

Art Hutchinson (37:10): I went to my dad and we did those and they interviewed and walked around the ranch.

Adam Williams (37:14): Okay.

Art Hutchinson (37:15): But I've never been a diary person, believe it or not. I don't know why. Maybe I couldn't keep up with him.

Adam Williams (37:22): So maybe audio and video are a great way to go. You can certainly get a lot more words in a shorter period of time than trying to hand write it or type it out. I want to step back to this career with the National Park Service. So you had studied archeology and you said natural... What was it you-

Art Hutchinson (37:42): Resource management.

Adam Williams (37:43): Okay. That led to a lengthy career with the National Park Service. And you reached high levels for leadership, correct?

Art Hutchinson (37:53): Yeah. I wasn't ever a director or whatever, but I was the liaison to the secretary of interior in DC and had an office right down the hall from secretary's office. So I learned a lot about how they make sausage in Washington, the old joke. And yet the number of challenges that came on across your desk daily was huge. And then I was fortunate.

The best part was not being in DC but being out in the parks. I started in Mesa Verde National Park and my daughters got to walk all over that place when we were doing stuff. And then Great Sand Dunes is probably one of my favorite places too. I was there for five years.

Art Hutchinson (38:34): It's one of the most beautiful landscapes I think in the world. It's underappreciated in some ways because it doesn't look so big when you're driving down [inaudible 00:38:45]. But when you're over there, those giant 600-foot miles of sand and the mountains behind them is...

And one nice thing about the Park Service is very few people go to a national park to have a bad time. You're not auditing their taxes or anything, you're just saying welcome to this place that America has chosen to preserve. And then you as the park ranger, the park manager get to try to keep it that way.

Adam Williams (39:14): Yeah, I think from an outsider perspective, the idea of these locations, the landscapes, it sure seems like, "Wow, what an amazing place to work." The fact that you also worked in DC though, that feels like quite a contrast to me. I'm curious about the experience that you had there. What time period are we talking about?

Art Hutchinson (39:37): 2000 period.

Adam Williams (39:39): Okay. It seems to me you've got to have a lot more hurdles maybe to deal with the politics and everything that's there? Did you struggle with that at all? Was that something that made you really wish you could get back out west in the landscape?

Art Hutchinson (39:53): Oh yeah, no question. One of the things drove me the craziest was the sirens back there. Everybody has got a siren on their darn car. I don't know why. Pretty soon I was just like, ugh. But the challenge is... Because one day you'd get a call from the... I remember Andy Carr called up and said, "Art, there's somebody, one of your park rangers is arresting somebody down a Chesapeake Bay here." He had a cabin there, wanted to know what was going on. I said, "Well, I'll find out for you because I sure don't know." In a heartbeat especially, I hated weekends because weekends are when the people, the politicians of their day are out recreating and they see things and then all of a sudden you've got to figure out and then find out your boss who if you can answer the question.

(40:40): But I got to spend a lot of time with three secretaries of the interior and never got to get in the White House. But that was okay. Got to watch helicopter take off a lot. It was quite an experience. Sausage making as I say because nothing is perfect back there.

But I lived east of where the Supreme Court building is in a basement apartment. I walk to the work almost every day, rain, sunshine, snow. And I go, "How many people on Earth get to walk the National Mall daily and see these monuments and experience that?" So it was a great growing experience. Even though I was fully grown, I was like, "Wow, I'm here. How many people get to do this?"

Adam Williams (41:30): It's the center of a different kind of broader history here, right? You came from a family and territory with history but that certainly gives you access at the center when you have all the Smithsonian museums and so on. But thinking of the politics part of that, when you and I talked beforehand, you had mentioned that you learned from your parents how to remain neutral in that kind of environment. And I'm guessing that that probably served you well there in DC.

Art Hutchinson (42:01): Yeah. It was actually key to, I think, part of my success. And I had one of the deputy secretaries said, "Art, you're one of the few that doesn't seem like you have an axe to grind on everything." And I said, "No, because I'm trying to figure out an answer." It was really easy to be a neutral person first of all and say, "Well, are you Democrat, Republican, or what?"

I said, "I don't have an affiliation, I have to play both sides of this and see who's right and who's wrong, or how we can help." I think it's helped here in Salida a little bit. My dad was fairly apolitical. He was on the school board for 29 years, but he never really jumped into politics.

Art Hutchinson (42:39): I try to maintain that thing here too. There's always two or three sides to every story. And obviously, we are in a political world sometimes more than I would like to see, but I have enough to do without jumping into all of that.

Adam Williams (42:55): It dates back all the way too, I think Joe Hutchinson, right? Again, the family member who founded the family's existence here because he was in the, I'll say state legislation, but it even actually went back to territory before Colorado was a state. Correct?

Art Hutchinson (43:12): Yeah. It starts with really the fact that the Ute Indians let him stay, let the family stay. He was Chief Colorado and he knew [inaudible 00:43:21]. Colorado would eat dinner at the ranch and he provided so many, as they say, beefs per year for the Utes because by then they were almost starving to death. He knew that he was a guest on their part of their world. He maintained that. Then he got in the territorial legislature and then when Colorado became a state, he was a state senator from this part of the world.

(43:44): So I don't know how he did it. He helped found the Colorado Cattleman's Association. They called it the stock growers. Even after the train got here, it's still was a haul to get to Denver. How do you not only run cows and family and get to the state legislature? It baffles me. These guys must have and their wives. Like Annabelle, she kept it going after he died in 1884 and made it until about 1915. How did they do it? I'm in awe of their stick-to-it-ness.

Adam Williams (44:21): There certainly was a heartiness to it and an energy to do so much. Something that strikes me with that is that there is this history in the family then of, I'll say, service, public service, community service. So whether it's in politics or not, you mentioned... I think it's pretty clear not necessarily being interested in politics yourself.

We're obviously living in a world that is right now very full of a lot of political heat. I'm wondering if what you find is with your experience out in the larger world you described earlier because you had that career, you got to learn more about that and learn things that were useful to you that now you've retired in... I think is it the last couple years? And come back here to Chaffee County.

Adam Williams (45:09): What is it that you are focusing on in terms of local issues and those things, and trying to work within this realm now that is so politically... There's such a gap between these perspectives? Do you find yourself able to engage with that neutrality and sort of straddle worlds and still serve this history?

Art Hutchinson (45:33): Well, it's getting harder, I believe to because you hear all sides of different stories and the people that fly the flag one way or the other or don't fly it. I just have learned to say I have plenty to do on the ranch. We're trying to keep the ranch well watered like it's supposed to be and that it's maintained, and that we're good neighbors. For example, this year, there was a fundraiser for the Democratic Party over at the Homestead and there's one for the Republican Party at the wedding barn.

(46:10): I think that's the best we can do is say, "Look, we're equal opportunity people here." And if ranches fail, this valley is going to fail I think even more so because the open space is what makes it good. So I'm hoping that the ranchers themselves can get together and say, "We're going to try to keep this open space open. We have a green, nice valley to live in." This valley was not a lush valley when it was first settled. The fields we have now were mostly sage brush type fields.

(46:43): So these water rights that we have and others have maintained are critical to keeping not only those things, the fields green, but the springs that go back to the river and help maintain the river during the low season is I think makes this place richer. You can't all just raft. We can't all just jeep up the hills. We need other things going here to keep, I think a vibrant, healthy place.

Adam Williams (47:11): Well, you certainly have experience and knowledge. I mean the actual education in terms of formal schooling, but also that career and the park service, the history with your family. I think you have this really unusual perspective about the value of the land and to conserve and think of the future as well as that history, right? Water is a huge, huge thing in general, but especially out here in the west right now. How do we bridge some of these gaps of opinions and stories and lead into the future and provide for the upcoming generations of the Hutchinsons, for example, and other ranchers to continue what they're doing here?

Art Hutchinson (47:57): Well, education is going to be... That's one of the reasons we really encourage the GuideStone people that help run the homestead over there. You said your kids went through a couple of these camps. What is the value of agriculture?

Because if you only go to a place that's like a museum and you can't touch that because it's... But here we're trying to make an experiential place for kids. They put tarps in the ditches to show how water flows out and they did a harvest camp the other day that kids just love.

(48:31): It's taking a village to do that so to speak. Without it, I don't know if kids here would even really know that that place exists. I've had a couple people that live in Poncha and I go, "Where do you live?" And I said, "Well, I live across the..." Oh, I said, "Do you know where the Hutchinson Homestead is?" "No, I've never seen it." I'm going you drive from Salida to Poncha every day and you see open fields. Does it even dawn on you that there's a sign says national historic site.

Adam Williams (48:58): The sign itself that says Hutchinson Homestead.

Art Hutchinson (49:01): So we are trying to, I think with that, have kids understand it. School buses come out there now and they can do things without just not touching stuff. We would like someday to maybe have a couple of the 4H kids can't have a steer and Salida can put it out there or another place on the ranch and they can come out and feed it and take care of it, and learn what it is to raise something up yourself and keep things going like that. I mean, we can't all just go to Safeway.

Adam Williams (49:30): You've mentioned that with all of the changes with the influx of whether that's vacationers, tourists, the booming population, the things that are drawing people out for outdoor recreation, but ranching and all these things of course still is part of what's happening here, and what needs to happen here. So what do you think the most significant issues right now that we as a county need to be focusing on and taking into account things like the land use code which is being developed to account for... Well, you mentioned the Conservation Easement, right? That's to protect and maintain the integrity of what has been the Hutchinson Ranch and not just be divided, but we also need to figure out the housing issue. Do you have thoughts on how do we balance all of these things?

Art Hutchinson (50:17): Boy.

Adam Williams (50:18): Big question.

Art Hutchinson (50:18): I wish I was that smart. I've been going to some meetings, listening in on that, reading the land use proposed codes and providing some input, especially on what ag lands could do for the place. I know we need housing. Everybody does. I just noticed that the town of Vail voted down letting Vail resorts put in low income housing for their workers.

So you go, "Okay, here's a brand new town..." Vail is only what, 50, 40 years old. They've had this problem for a long time. We're lucky that I think we've been able to keep it going though like we have. A lot of these little bungalow houses that house the railroad workers and the miners are now Vrbo's and that affects the school system, if you don't have kids in school.

(51:09): So there is a balance there. I don't envy the county commissioners and the other folks working on this. It's hard. This change, it's coming around. I think it's almost coming around too fast for a little town like Salida and put their arms around. BV is doing similar things. It's hard.

Adam Williams (51:30): You mentioned when you were in DC that you looked for answers. That was part of the whole thing of, "I don't need to get into politics, I'm looking for answers". And what came to mind for me then is answers instead of angles, right?

Art Hutchinson (51:40): Yeah.

Adam Williams (51:40): It's not about my political angle or my personal agenda, we have to work fast and together for answers, I think. And that's where the moderate neutral sort of, "Let's get it done thinking in voices." I think your voice is an important one here in the county. It's going to be essential to provide for whatever the future is.

I want to ask, it's sort of a similar question that I just asked, but maybe in a different way. This may be a little more personal to you, is what would you like to leave for generation six and seven who are already here in future generations of Hutchinson's and of course the others to come?

Art Hutchinson (52:19): Well, I guess if we could set examples, not just us, I don't want to make this all about our family, but having a school board for example, that can have discourse about things without having... I see around the country these screaming fits about a lot of things. Salida has always been able to have a fairly stable, congenial atmosphere about how decisions are made. So if we could contribute somehow to that to say let's... If you need a neutral place to go have a meeting, come out to our wedding barn and let's hash it out as just humans and not as discourse and talking past each other.

(53:04): So maybe if the ranch is one thing that can be a neutral place for the future, that would be one of my goals is to leave it that way as not... It didn't become a golf course, it didn't become a condo place. It became a place where we could all get together and talk about some things.

And that's the way I'm treating it now saying, "Let's do it. I don't put up political signs out there on either side." Just say, "Look, I know the county commissioners supported us doing this and they were of various parties. Let's just leave that green space between Poncha and Salida as a apolitical spot on the landscape."

Adam Williams (53:43):

We talk about all this change, but that is something that also retains the connection to the roots. Not just the roots of your family, but the roots of this county, the roots of this area. I think that sounds pretty wonderful to think that we have a neutral territory that we can all come together.

Art Hutchinson (54:01): So if we can do that... And a lot of good people make Salida what it is. Some have passed away and some are aging as we know, but if we can keep that spirit, so much the better. And then change becomes a good thing instead of a, "Oh my god, we changed so fast. We all fell apart."

We're still in a little isolated valley. No matter how you look at it, the canyon slows people down a little bit. And 285 has gotten so crowded, it slows people down. But we're still in this little central valley that I think it has some good potential.

Adam Williams (54:38):

It's special enough that you came back to it. After your career, you retired and moved back here.

Art Hutchinson (54:43):

And the good things are the mountains are going to stay. Hopefully the rivers will flow. We have a big broad valley that has a lot of nice sunshine and decent people. Let's try to keep it neutral and congenial.

Adam Williams (54:58):

Art, thanks for taking the time to sit here and talk with me today.

Art Hutchinson (55:01): You're welcome.

Adam Williams (55:02): I appreciate getting to learn from you.

Art Hutchinson (55:05): I appreciate your good questions and sorry if I couldn't answer them all. With great wisdom, but I'm trying.

Adam Williams (55:11): Oh, it's been a fantastic, fantastic talk. Thank you.

Art Hutchinson (55:14): Beautiful.

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Adam Williams (55:17): That was my conversation with Art Hutchinson. If what art shared here today resonated with you, you can email comments to Lisa Martin, one of our producers at lmartin@chaffeecounty.org.

We also invite you to rate and review the We Are Chaffee Looking Upstream podcast on Apple Podcast, Spotify, Google Podcasts, or whatever platform you use, assuming it has that functionality. We also welcome your spreading the word on your social media pages and even invite you to tell your family, friends and coworkers about Looking Upstream the old fashioned way, word of mouth.

Once again, I'm your host, Adam Williams. Jon Pray is engineer and producer. Thank you to KHEN Radio where we recorded today's conversation in Salida, Colorado; Heather Gorby for graphic and web design; Lisa Martin, producer and community advocacy coordinator for the We Are Chaffee Initiative; Andrea Carlstrom, director of Chaffee County Public Health and Environment, and Becky Gray, director of the Chaffee Housing Authority.

(56:07): The We are Chaffee Looking Upstream podcast is a collaboration with the Chaffee County Departments of Public Health and Housing and is supported by the Colorado Public Health and Environment Office of Health Disparities. You can learn more about the Looking Upstream podcast and related storytelling initiatives at wearechaffee.org. And on Instagram and Facebook @wearechaffee.

Lastly, thank you for listening. And until next time, as we say at We Are Chaffee, be human, share stories.

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